Network Effect: From Protecting Homes to Preventing Grid Faults

Pete Miller [00:38]: Welcome to the Predict & Prevent podcast! Today we’re joined by Bob Marshall, CEO and co-founder of Whisker Labs.

Bob, who first appeared on our podcast in 2023, is the co-inventor of Ting, an innovative sensor technology that’s now deployed in over 1 million homes through partnerships with more than 30 insurance companies.

But here’s where it gets really interesting — this growing network of home sensors is creating something unprecedented: the most comprehensive view of America’s electrical grid, with the potential to predict and prevent utility-sparked wildfires before they devastate entire communities.

In today’s conversation, we’ll explore how Ting has evolved from protecting individual homes to potentially preventing billion-dollar catastrophes … the impressive ROI that’s convinced 8 of the top 10 insurance carriers to adopt the technology … and Bob’s vision for expanding this prevention-focused approach to commercial buildings and beyond.

Pete Miller [01:45]: Well, Bob, welcome back to the podcast. I really appreciate your time and certainly have been watching the great work you’ve been doing since the last time we spoke. So the last time we did speak was in 2023. And our focus at the time was on your Ting sensor — which I’m a proud owner of,  just for the record — which I think kind of embodies a lot of the concept of applying technology to, you know, to detect potential risks that can lead to a loss. So whisker labs and Ting deployment has grown a lot since then. So can you tell us a little bit about that and what do you attribute your success to?

Bob Marshall [02:20]: Yeah, thanks, Pete. It’s great to be back for sure. you know, we’re the Ting deployments have grown rapidly. We’re in over a million homes now, adding about 50,000 new homes per month. And, you know, a couple things to attribute that to. I mean, first and foremost, obviously, we’re trying to do really important work to prevent fires, right? Some of the worst losses that impact homeowners.

And  with all the data that we have now and working with our carrier partners, we now were able to document kind of the performance of and how many fires we’re preventing. So there’s a clear ROI for our insurance partners. And we have over 30 insurance partners now, certainly many more than we had back in 2023 and eight out of the top 10 largest ones as well.

So we know that Ting prevents a lot of fires and large loss fires. So economically it makes sense, but you know, most importantly, it’s that Ting just works for the homeowner too. It’s nice and simple, no batteries, you plug it in, connected to Wi-Fi. Obviously, the homeowners, what we know is that they really appreciate the fact that their insurance carrier is investing in their family’s safety and their home’s safety. And you know, you don’t often hear so many positive things sometimes about homeowners thanking their insurance carrier, but they certainly do in the case of Tang and we’re proud of that.

Pete Miller [03:44]: You mentioned carriers. Bob, when you go to them and you spoke about ROI, can you give us a few details since that seems to be a critical element of scaling. To have eight of the top 10 is really amazing. But can you tell us from a carrier point of view, what’s the ROI and how do carriers look at that?

Bob Marshall [04:03]: Yeah, you know, it turned out to be a little bit more tricky to actually document that than I anticipated that it would be. You know, when you think about it, you’re trying to document what didn’t happen. It’s certainly easy to document what does happen after a claim happens, but what did we prevent? But, you know, what we’ve done is, you know, we collect the claims data from carriers or carrier partners. And what we see is that the claims, as soon as you plug in Ting, the claims drop precipitously. I mean, fire claims, right?

So we’re able to document that we effectively prevent 0.4 claims per 1,000 home years. In fact, we worked with Triple-I, the Insurance Information Institute, and their actuary team. They’re a co-author on the study that we’re literally getting ready to release in the coming weeks and with a third-party actuarial firm as well. I think it’s, you know, finally we have sufficient data to really clearly document it. And obviously that’s super important, right, for the carrier to understand their economics.

Pete Miller [05:17]: And peace of mind, Bob, I can speak from experience. It’s a peace of mind that you realize I can look at my phone and see any aberrations.

Bob Marshall [05:26]: Yeah, I mean, it really is. I mean, the loss benefits need to be quantifiable and clear, but the benefits go way beyond preventing fires. I mean, the customers really do appreciate it because we deliver, as you know, as a customer, you get power outage notifications and things like that. And those things, while small, they’re really important in the moment. You realize that the technology is monitoring your home and it gives you that peace of mind to know that this technology is protecting my family and home and that translates into an appreciation for the carrier, which also is hard to measure but everybody knows it’s there.

Pete Miller [06:08]: Yeah, absolutely. I think I’ve heard you reference that Ting even prevents some water leaks in frozen pipes. Was that always part of the plan or did that kind of discover it along the way?

Bob Marshall [06:19]: It kind of was part of the plan, but it’s actually something that we didn’t fully appreciate. You know, when we studied the water losses, which are obviously the number one loss category for a carrier, you know, there’s a substantial percentage of those losses that are associated with frozen pipes.

That’s just one, you know, they’re not the highest frequency water loss for a carrier, but frozen pipes are very high severity because they almost always happen when nobody’s home. So nobody knows that’s happening. But Ting has a temperature sensor in it, right? So with advanced AI, we can see the difference between the temperature of the Ting and the outdoor temperature. And we can be very precise about warning a customer that their home is going to be at risk of frozen pipe situations. So those are major losses for the carrier as well. And then we also detect problems with water heaters and sump pumps that that are also notorious for causing water losses.

Pete Miller [07:11]: As the network of Ting sensors has expanded, I’ve been fascinated to see how this network might also help utilities predict grid stress or faults. That, under some conditions, can spark a wildfire. So can you walk us through your vision of how that works?

Bob Marshall [07:29]: Yeah, and this is something we would definitely been very thoughtful about. So a single Ting sensor that our carrier partners distribute protects one single home. It monitors all the wiring inside of a home. But the collective network of Ting sensors then monitors all the wiring on the grid from power generation to transmission and distribution.

So our sensor network is the most definitive and authoritative source for what’s going on the grid bar none. mean, so we know more about the operation of the US utility grid than anybody else does. And obviously we’ve seen, unfortunately, that whether it’s the Maui and the Lahaina fires and most recently the LA fires that are likely sparked by utility faults.

We are super passionate about leveraging the data that we have to help utilities understand when their grid is really reaching that level of stress and problems that they can make more informed decisions on shutting off power. Because the grid that is shut down is not going to spark a wildfire. And those things have obviously resulted in tens, hundreds of billions of dollars in losses, let alone the lives and communities that were devastated.

So, there’s no question that we can help the utilities understand this and help prevent these things in the future. And obviously this, know, and credit to you and the institutes and Triple-I, your leadership overall on the idea of transitioning to that predict and prevent mindset. You know, I think the insurance carriers are definitely getting there and hopefully we’ll get the utilities there as well.

Pete Miller [09:13]: What I found fascinating, Bob, is that you have the most information bar none. So can you tell us, how does your network give utilities visibility that their own systems might not do?

Bob Marshall [09:27]: You know, it’s somewhat shocking, but the utilities don’t have anything like the technology that we have in the Ting sensor. You know, you might have heard of smart meters, but, you know, without saying anything too disparaging, I mean, they’re not really all that smart. I mean, they help automate the billing process so the utility can bill you very effectively and quick.

But they don’t really do much in terms of monitoring the grid and understanding problems. So I think they’re just pretty far behind when it comes to technology and sensors and the use of AI to understand what’s going on in the grid to predict and prevent problems. But… and obviously we’re new. So in fairness, I think you go back a few years and the idea that an insurance carrier would invest in this little plug that’s going to plug in and prevent a fire in a home was a little bit foreign as well. Now everybody gets that. But we will get the utilities there to understand that the sensors and the data are really powerful and that it can be used to help predict and prevent these terrible wildfires and other grid catastrophes that we’ve seen with the frozen situation in Texas a couple of years ago and things like that.

Pete Miller [10:45]: Yeah, my sister lived through that situation in Texas. That was not fun. So let’s just go back then. Utilities like PG &E, I mean, we know they spend a lot of money on wildfire mitigation. So can you quantify the ROI to their grid compared to the traditional solutions like, you know, burying power lines, or can you do a cost difference?

Bob Marshall [11:09]: I think from a utility perspective, it you know, the grid, you know, obviously has developed over 100 years, certainly many decades, and it requires a ton of investment. So, you know, not just obviously our part of it is a small piece, but it’s important because we understand the operation of the grid with the data that we have, you know, but burying power lines has got to be part of it, you know, updating, you know, decades old you know, utility equipment at substations and poles and transformers and things like that. You know, unfortunately, it’s, going to take a significant investment, right? I mean, the grid is dealing with weather and climate conditions that it was not designed for decades ago. It’s changing. And the weather conditions that it’s going to face today and going forward are even going to be worse.

So, you know, for society’s benefit, there’s a cost unfortunately associated with upgrading the grid. And that’s going to have to be made happen. I mean, or else we’re going to continue to see, you know, catastrophes that have horrible impacts on people and families and communities. And obviously it impacts the insurance sector and the losses and the tragedies, you know, so we all have to get on board with doing everything we can to make the grid more resilient for the weather and climate of the future.

Pete Miller [12:33]: Yeah, I think I heard a number. I think PG&E is $30 billion in wildfire liabilities. If they want to, I believe these are the numbers, if they want to bury 10,000 miles of power lines at $60 billion. Do those numbers make sense to you?

Bob Marshall [12:48]: I’m not an expert in the numbers necessarily, but I know it is super expensive to bury electrical wires, transmission lines. And I think there are more efficient and effective things that can be done quickly. I mean, that’s a long, many, many years, decades process to bury the power lines. And again, some of that should be done. I’m certainly not saying that’s not part of the solution.

But understanding where your grid is challenged and where it’s stressed when the weather conditions are like they were in LA or in Maui, and making a smart decision to turn off the power, that’s a very difficult decision. I get it, right? mean, turning off the power, they spend their whole life trying to keep power on for you. And then to make the decision to turn the power off is not an easy decision.

But in hindsight, you know, it’s the right thing to do in certain circumstances. And I think Warren Buffett and the Berkshire Hathaway, the new CEO, talked about it significantly at his most recent annual conference. He said, look, we’ve got to change — and they own both insurance and power companies, right, utility companies — he said, we’ve got to change the mindset of the utilities to get all the data that they need to make smart decisions on when, look, it’s just best to turn off the power and eliminate the source of the spark that ignites the fir.

Because you know in those situations in Lahaina and and Maui You have to eliminate the initial spark. There’s no early detection No early response that is going to stop that catastrophe once that fire starts in 70, 80 mile an hour winds. It’s just too late. So the only way to prevent the damage and catastrophe is to prevent the spark. If your grid was perfectly hardened and could handle all the weather it never sparks to begin with, but we’re a long way from that. So we’ve got to figure out how to help the utilities understand when it makes sense to turn off the power.

Pete Miller [14:49]: So maybe even beyond that, Bob, if you look ahead, do you see the partnership between Whisker Labs and utilities evolving as your network capabilities expand and your AI models get more sophisticated?

Bob Marshall [15:03]: Yeah, I’m actually hopeful. I think we’ve got a couple of things going that I can’t talk about publicly here. But I think we are now, I think that the data that we have and the opportunity to leverage the data and the intelligence that comes off of the network, I think is being recognized in many utility circles as something that just makes sense. It’s not expensive in the scheme of, as you talked about, $60 billion to underground lines. I mean, this is like very effective, very efficient, very fast. It already exists.

But it is a new concept for utilities to take advantage of a third-party data source. So we got to get them over that hurdle. But I think we’re on our way. And our sole objective, we certainly have no interest in being the adversary of a utility. We want to help in every way possible to prevent the fire. I mean, that’s literally what we are motivated by every day, whether it’s fires inside of homes or fires caused by the grid.

Pete Miller [16:04]: So if you think about Whisker Labs five years from now, are there other things you’re working on or things that you get excited about or direction?

Bob Marshall [16:14]: Well, I think it’s been amazing the last three or four years, our insurance carriers are really pulling us hard. Why can’t we put Ting in commercial structures? Right now, we’re focused solely on residential homes. And that’s not because the technology doesn’t work in commercial structures. It’s just a different operational situation and who we work with and what tools we have to provide a building manager or property manager.

But I mean, there’s no question that the market is telling us, you know, let’s get Ting into commercial structures to not only prevent fires, but, you know, commercial structures have large equipment and that is easily damaged and cause a lot of loss from bad power. So power quality is a big, big issue for commercial structures and Ting obviously is a super sophisticated power quality monitor. So in addition to preventing fires in commercial structures, we’re going to help understand power quality so that the building owner can be proactive about taking steps to make sure they’ve got good and safe electricity.

Pete Miller [17:27]: Bob, is there anything I should have asked that I did not?

Bob Marshall [17:31]: One of the challenges that we have is just on the marketing. I think we’re starting to see this. In fact, I was going to send out to our team, the Pure Insurance Group is producing a bunch of commercials now. I saw one yesterday, I saw one yesterday, not on Ting specifically, but really on predict and prevent, you know, what if your insurance carrier actually helped prevent losses, you know, it’s part of actually a TV commercial.

So obviously, your good work to get that message out is amazing. So it’s not just preventing the losses, but it does change the relationship with the homeowner, right? It’s not just dealing with a catastrophe after the fact. If you can change that mindset to, yes, we, your insurance company is investing in your safety, then that’s a very positive experience for the homeowner and the insurance company.

Pete Miller [18:33]: I couldn’t agree with you more, right? I mean, there’s not enough premium to cover the losses. So how about if we take advantage of things like Ting and work together and say, ‘Hey, guess what? We can avoid the loss in the first place?’ We’ve talked about that a lot, Bob, right? I mean, and that just makes sense.

Bob Marshall [18:50]: Yeah, the value, I think, as we’re documenting with our ROI study, it kind of has to pay for itself with the loss prevention. But the value for the insurance carrier is way above that. I mean, if they think of it strategically and changing that relationship with the homeowner to where they’re a trusted source of protection, that’s just a completely different mindset, right?

They’re usually dealing with a homeowner that’s upset. They’ve had a terrible loss and they’re, know, hopefully it’s been a good claims experience, but it not always is, you know. But when you are preventing something, what we see in testimonials every day, I mean, we have 20,000 homes that we have saved to date, 25 new ones every day, and the appreciation that we see from our customers towards their insurance carrier, is just not something that our partners have ever seen before, right? It’s incredible.

Pete Miller [19:46]: And the thing is the industry does that kind of work every day.  Bob, always, I’m super grateful. Thank you.

Bob Marshall [19:53]: Yeah, no, Pete, I appreciate it.